Was Jesus a copy of other Gods? (ie: Horus)
Mysteries of the Ancient Imposters debunked
Too often do I come across websites, blogs, word of mouth circulating while depicting how Christianity borrowed themes from earlier religions making it a copycat. I always seem to hear that Christianity is not unique because that it stole the ideas of other gods. Everyone familiar with the religion can understand that the centralized theme of “good vs. evil” and “light vs. dark” are as old as humanity itself. But specifically , there is attributes given to the gods of contesting religions of the following:
Born on Dec 25th
Was God in the Flesh
Born of a virgin
Died for our sins
Titled the redeemer, Son of God, Lamb of God,Resurrected
With the exception of his birth on December 25th, one could reasonably claim that it was stolen from pagan ideas. I believe that is true but it is more based on ideology than theology. It doesn’t make a difference. One shouldn’t assume that just because that date was fused in with Christianity that all elements such as his birth, death, and resurrection was too. I know there is a lot of information out there on the internet and he said, she said sources so I decided to investigate the actual history itself to come up with my own educated conclusion. I was quite surprised. I crossed studied each of the mythical gods in ancient history and did a break down analysis and comparison with Jesus. Anyone can make a claim but to actually be credited and backed up with history itself is quite often never used. I wanted to deflate these false information. Hopefully this might shed some more light for you to the pass the real TRUTH and the GOOD NEWS!
1. ADONIS- Associated with life/death cycle of vegetation
Death and resurrection- Apollodorus, who was a Greek writer born about 180 BC, about 2200 years ago who wrote the Library mentions his death but no resurrection
“And Adonis, while still a boy, was wounded and killed in hunting by a boar through the anger of Artemis.” – Apollodorus, The Library, Book III.
The earliest known record of a tradition involving a revived Adonis comes from Lucian of Samosata, the author of De Dea Syria.
“They say, at any rate, that the deed that was done to Adon by the boar occurred in their land, and in memory of that misfortune every year they beat their breasts and mourn and perform the ceremonies, making solemn lamentations throughout the country. And when the breast-beating and weeping is at end, first they make offerings to Adon as if to a dead person; and then, on the next day, they proclaim that he is alive and fetch him forth into the air, and shave their heads as the Egyptians do when Apis dies.”
The problem with this is that it was written a century after Christ, too late to influence Christianity.
Resurrection Theocritus, a Greek poet during the third century AD, after the time of Jesus, indicates in his Psalm of Adonis that Adonis is revived for a single day each year and then is carried out to the sea. There is a huge difference here. Jesus dies was resurrected and defeated death. On the contrary, Adonis dies, returns back to death and gets revived. Resurrection is not the same as revivication. Another problem with this is that it was written 2 centuries after Christ. So you tell me who borrowed what from whom?
Virgin Birth- according to the book, the Library:
“…this Smyrna conceived a passion for her father, and with the complicity of her nurse she shared her father’s bed without his knowledge for twelve nights. But when he was aware of it, he drew his sword and pursued her, and being overtaken she prayed to the gods that she might be invisible; so the gods in compassion turned her into the tree which they call smyrna (myrrh). Ten months afterwards the tree burst and Adonis, as he is called, was born…”
This indicates that he was born through incest than through a virgin birth.
2. DIONYSUS (BACCHUS) is the god of wine, the inpirer of ritual madness and ecstasy. He represents the intoxicating power of wine.(Doesn’t sound like a Jesus to me)
Virgin Birth- When discussing the virgin the birth, there is many version of Dionysus’ real mother. The Golden Bough, some traditions say that he was born of a deity, such as Persephone, the Greek mythical queen of the underworld, or Demeter, a Greek goddess of agriculture who is sometimes revered as the Mother Goddess. Jesus’ mother on the other hand was a mortal woman, a human. Other traditions have Dionysus born from a mortal woman named Semele. And there also was a tradition that Semele never actually gives birth to Dionysus, as we learn from Ovid, a first century Roman poet who wrote Metamorphoses. Ovid informs us that Semele asks to see the god who impregnated her. The god presents himself as a storm. Although the god tries to restrain himself, he inadvertently kills Semele: “But still Semele’s mortal body could not endure the storm, and she was consumed, by the fire of her nuptial gift. The infant Bacchus, still unfinished, is torn from the mother’s womb, and (if it can be believed) is sewn into his father’s thigh to complete his full term.” – Metamorphoses, book III, section 273-315.
Many ancient sources of literature, including The Bacchae, relay the mythical tradition that Semele was the daughter of Cadmus, who was the son of Agenor. Agenor, as we are told by ancient Greek writers, including Apollodorus, was the son of Poseidon, the legendary god of the sea, who also was known as Neptune. Semele’s great-grandfather Poseidon/Neptune was one of the very greatest gods of Greek mythology. He was also a brother to Zeus. And to complicate matters even more in terms of trying to suggest that there are similarities between Semele and Mary, Semele’s mother, Harmonia, was an immortal goddess who was the daughter of Aphrodite (also known as Venus). In other words, Semele was not a virgin or a mortal woman as opposed to Jesus’ mother Mary.
Turning water into wine. The earliest source of this was from Achilles Tatius, in his romance novel, Leucippe and Cleitophon, which is most commonly said to have been written during the second century AD, after the New Testament.
Resurrcetion and crucifixion- according to myth, Dionysus is born to a female deity, torn to pieces by Titans, re-gestated by Semele who is accidentally incinerated, and then sewn into the thigh of Zeus/Jupiter, until he reaches full term for the second time, and is born for the second time, from the thigh of Zeus/Jupiter. This is however a different view from the New Testament writers about Jesus.
3. KRISHNA Although the words Krishna and Christ might sound phonetically similar, they have different meanings. “Krishna” means “the black one,” or “dark one,” whereas the “Christ” means “anointed one” or “messiah.”
Virgin birth The Mahabharata, a Hindu religious text with details about the life and teachings of Krishna, says that Krishna was born in a prison, not a manger, and that his father was a nobleman, not a carpenter.As for a virgin birth, the Mahabharata says that Krishna’s parents were Princess Devaki and Vasudeva, (Mahabharata Book 12, Section 48), who had several children before he was born.
Death and crucifixion- As for the crucifixion and resurrection, it is true that the Mahabharata says that Krishna, who is alternately referred to as Keshava, is killed and that he returns to life, but he was not crucified. Instead, he receives a mortal injury to the heel while meditating in the forest:”A fierce hunter of the name of Jara then came there, desirous of deer. The hunter, mistaking Keshava, who was stretched on the earth in high Yoga, for a deer, pierced him at the heel with a shaft and quickly came to that spot for capturing his prey.” – Mahabharata, Book 16, Section 4
4. HORUS son of Osiris and Isis, the war god, lord of the sky, often depicted as a falcon, hawk, or a lion’s body with a head of a hawk ( but never as the “Lamb of God” such as Jesus)
If you study the history of Horus, such as his losing his eye, avenging his father’s death by battling his uncle Set, and losing his testicle which explains why the desert is infertile, there is nothing similar to Jesus.
Virgin Birth- according to Plutarch, Isis lost her virginity before she was born:”… but Isis and Osiris were enamored of each other and consorted together in the darkness of the womb before their birth. Some say that Arueris came from this union and was called the elder Horus by the Egyptians, but Apollo by the Greeks.” – Plutarch, Osiris and Isis.Isis and Osiris were not only husband and wife, they were brother and sister. In fact they were twins. And in accordance to their mythology, they had consummated their love for one another before they were born. There is also a tradition that Isis later marries her son Horus, further complicating any reasonable comparisons to Christianity. There are no reasons to believe a virgin birth from a mortal woman as the New Testament writers write. Its also very difficult to believe that a mortal virgin woman would produce a half lion/half hawk god.
Baptismal- According to the Egyptian book, the Book of Going Forth by Day, baptism was used to purify the newborn from the mothers womb. Also, water, especially the Nile’s cold water, which was believed to have regenerative powers, is ONLY used to baptize the dead in a ritual, unlike how the way the living Jesus was baptized.
Crucifixion and resurrection- There are two passages within the writing of Plutarch that might lead one to assume that the reconstruction of Osiris leads to a resurrection:• “Later, as they relate, Osiris came to Horus from the other world and exercised and trained him for the battle.” – Plutarch, Osiris and Isis.• “In this way we shall undertake to deal with the numerous and tiresome people, whether they be such as take pleasure in associating theological problems with the seasonal changes in the surrounding atmosphere, or with the growth of the crops and seed-times and ploughing; and also those who say that Osiris is being buried at the time when the grain is sown and covered in the earth and that he comes to life and reappears when plants begin to sprout.” – Plutarch, Osiris and Isis.
This is too ambiguous to assume a bodily resurrection like Christ. It just indicates of a spiritual resurrection. He then became the ruler of the underworld, a story unlike Jesus. Another problem with crucifixion is that it wasn’t practiced 4 thousand years ago at the time of Horus so how is that possible? The earliest that we can actually date crucifixion is to the act of Darius the Persian, conqueror of Babylon in 519 BCE, when he had 3000 Babylonian prisoners crucified
Other- There are no mentions that Horus had 12 disciples like Jesus, but a mention of 4 demi-gods and 16 nobles accomanying him. There are no mentions of Horus being born in a manger, no mentions of Horus raising anyone from the dead like how Jesus rais ed Lazarus from the dead. Horus did however avenge Osiris’ death. If that these are true where are these facts at? Someone please tell me!
6. MITHRA- Mirthra was born out of a rock, not a virgin; was known for killing a bull; there are no textual evidence suggesting Mithras die, therefor no sacrifice or resurrection could be possible. Myths about Mithras parallel accounts to Jesus wasn’t invented till 2 to 5 centuries after the Gospels were well known and circulated. Must I say more?
CONCLUSION: Truth is revealed when you actually take time to study history. People see parallels and then jump into conclusions without examing history, dates, and sources. While other religions are constantly adapted and changing, the story of Jesus doesn’t. When you look closely, you see that some of the stories were written after the New Testament writers. Also those myths were created off pure imagination. The writers of Jesus did not take amusement because they were actually being killed, fed to lions, crucified, shot with arrows, burnt, beaten and exiled. Why do you think they would suffer and risk their lives for just writing a story with no monetary value? For fun? Furthermore, Christ may have been born over 2 thousand years ago, after those gods were known, but his prophecy and fulfillment as the Messiah predated up to 2000BC, longer than Adonis and Dionysus. A major difference was that stories were created using these Gods to explain seasonal, vegetational changes and cycles whereas Jesus actually had eyewitnesses, was historically documented, and was not related to cycles and changes. Even more, the gods depicted in other religions and myths had different forms and shapes, and some would come down to mate with humans giving birth to demi god offsprings. These concepts were alien to Christians and Jews. Their God had no form or shape just expressed in 2 different concepts until Jesus. Last but not least, just because there could be slight similarities, its details that make the difference. So read history and stop believing that crap and even worse, stop spreading it!! You must equip yourself with the armor of Truth so that the injection of lies can not penetrate you. The Truth will be revealed to you if you search for it!!
Inspired by George Konig and About-Jesus.org, Lee Strobel Case for the Real Jesus
When Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in Egyptian Heaven, contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, we understand that as a myth.
When the sacred rites of Demeter at Eleusis are described as bringing believers happiness in their eternal life, we understand that as a myth.
In fact, when ancient writers tell us that in general ancient people believed in eternal life, with the good going to the Elysian Fields and the not so good going to Hades, we understand that as a myth.
When Vespatian’s spittle healed a blind man, we understand that as a myth.
When Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, we understand that as a myth.
When the Pythia , the priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, in Greece, prophesied, and over and over again for a thousand years, the prophecies came true, we understand that as a myth.
When Dionysus turned water into wine, we understand that as a myth. When Dionysus believers are filled with atay, the Spirit of God, we understand that as a myth.
When Romulus is described as the Son of God, born of a virgin, we understand that as a myth.
When Alexander the Great is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.
When Augustus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal , we understand that as a myth. woman
When Dionysus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.
When Scipio Africanus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.
So how come when Jesus is described as
the Son of God,
born of a mortal woman,
according to prophecy,
turning water into wine,
raising girls from the dead, and
healing blind men with his spittle,
and setting it up so His believers got eternal life in Heaven contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, and off to Hades—er, I mean Hell—for the bad folks…
how come that’s not a myth?
Moonsray
April 18, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Great question and thank you for commenting. I’ll try my best to answer that question.
First off, most of the figures you mentioned were considered myths. Now what do I mean by myths? Myths revolved around stories ascribed to explain about the mysteries of nature we couldn’t understand at that time, the orders of life, and process such as vegetation cycles. None of those were attributed to Jesus. Those that wrote about Jesus wrote in a manner that he was an actual person that existed.
Also, myths don’t include eye witnesses and testimonies either or real places, people, or events such as what was written in the New Testament. The 9 writers of the New Testament claim to be eye witnesses that recorded events, 30 historically confirmed real people, archaeologically confirmed events, and real places that could be crossed verified by secular evidences and history.
Now most of our evidence for Jesus’ miracles are contained in the New Testament. So are the New testament writers credible in everything they wrote about Jesus or was it just a made up story that soon became a myth?
Well one would have to explain why independent non-Christian writers wrote a very similar storyline to the New Testament. If they were fictional, then why did some of them write as if it actually occurred?
The New Testament writers included numerous embarrassing details about themselves such as their ignorance, cowardice, fear, and denial. We don’t see that pattern in stories or myths because the writers usually portray themselves as heroic, courageous, and wise. Furthermore, these writers included divergent details of the accounts as well as challenged their readers to check out verifiable facts, even facts about miracles.
They even abandoned their long held sacred beliefs, practices, adopted new ones, and did not deny their testimony even upon execution. People lie for the truth, not for a lie or myth. If it was a lie, they would have a very difficult time convincing hundreds of Jews to follow their lead since it meant death. Many Christians were persecuted for believing in Jesus.
Myths were also written for amusement and for monetary value. These writers of Jesus had nothing to gain and everything to lose. They suffered the most horrid persecution and torture. What writer would lose his life for a myth?
Also, when we look at supposed miracles such as Alexander the Great, the first story of his miracle weren’t mentioned until almost 500 years later!
That is not the case with Christianity which the Gospels were written 30 years or even earlier, too early to evolve into a myth, with eye witnesses still alive to confirm if it was true or heretical.
The greatest miracle that Jesus performed was his resurrection. People did not convert because he was a great ethical teacher of his time but because of his miracle they witnessed and are convicted of.
1 Corinthians 15: “if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.’
-Paul
herqlez253
April 19, 2009 at 2:10 am
First off, most of the figures you mentioned were considered myths. Now what do I mean by myths? Myths revolved around stories ascribed to explain about the mysteries of nature we couldn’t understand at that time, the orders of life, and process such as vegetation cycles. None of those were attributed to Jesus. Those that wrote about Jesus wrote in a manner that he was an actual person that existed.
I’m sorry – you think Julius Caesar was a myth?!!
You think Scipio Africanus was a myth?!!
You think Alexander the Great was a myth?!!
You think Apollonius of Tyana was a myth?!!
You think the Emperor Vespatian was a myth?!!
You think the Pythia was a myth?!!
… are you serious?
Also, myths don’t include eye witnesses and testimonies either or real places, people, or events such as what was written in the New Testament. The 9 writers of the New Testament claim to be eye witnesses that recorded events,
I didn’t know. Can you refer me please to the verses in which Mt, Mk, and Luke say they personally witnessed any of the events they recount?
Since you can’t do that, shall we agree Jesus’ miracles are myths?
30 historically confirmed real people, archaeologically confirmed events, and real places that could be crossed verified by secular evidences and history.
Right. But Caesar, Scipio, Alexander, Apollonius, Vespatian, and the Pythia are also historically archeologically confirmed and cross verified.
Do you then believe their magic doings are real?
If not, why do these points make Jesus’ magic doings real?
Now most of our evidence for Jesus’ miracles are contained in the New Testament. So are the New testament writers credible in everything they wrote about Jesus or was it just a made up story that soon became a myth?
Well one would have to explain why independent non-Christian writers wrote a very similar storyline to the New Testament. If they were fictional, then why did some of them write as if it actually occurred?
Hellooooo. These same people, Tacitus, Josephus, Lucian, etc. wrote as if the pagan gods you imagine were fictional were real. Does that mean the pagan god stories are not myths? If not, why not?
The New Testament writers included numerous embarrassing details about themselves such as their ignorance, cowardice, fear, and denial. We don’t see that pattern in stories or myths because the writers usually portray themselves as heroic, courageous, and wise.
So there is no ignorance, cowardice, fear or denial in ancient mythic literature?!! Going out on a limb here, am I correct to guess you’ve never read Homer or the Attic drama? Precisely what ancient literature have you read? Can you please point me to the survey of ancient mythic literature that confirms the claims you make here?
Since you can’t in fact cite and quote any such survey, shall we agree that your claim here has no factual basis, that someone just make it up, and it sounded good to you, and you’re repeating it without knowing the actual facts. In short you are just repeating a modern apologetic myth.
Interesting how easily and quickly myths get started and spread around, don’t you think?
If I am wrong on your personal knowledge here I apologize contritely; and you will cite and quote your source.
They even abandoned their long held sacred beliefs, practices, adopted new ones, and did not deny their testimony even upon execution.
I’m not aware that that is true. Please educate me. Please cite and quote the ancient source that leads you to believe any person with first hand knowledge of Jesus choose death when he might have been spared by recanting.
People lie for the truth, not for a lie or myth. If it was a lie, they would have a very difficult time convincing hundreds of Jews to follow their lead since it meant death. Many Christians were persecuted for believing in Jesus.
And many pagans were persecuted for believing in paganism. Does this persuade you pagan gods were real? If not, why not?
Myths were also written for amusement and for monetary value.
Who told you this? What is your source? You know very little about ancient religion.
Also, when we look at supposed miracles such as Alexander the Great, the first story of his miracle weren’t mentioned until almost 500 years later!
1. Who told you that?
2. “At Alexandria a commoner, whose eyes were well known to have wasted away …fell at Vespasian’s feet demanding with sobs a cure for his blindness, and imploring that the Emperor would deign to moisten his eyes and eyeballs with the spittle from his mouth. … Vespasian …. did as the men desired him. Immediately the hand recovered its functions and daylight shone once more in the blind man’s eyes. Those who were present still attest both miracles today, when there is nothing to gain by lying”
Tacitus, The Histories, 4.81
From which you conclude Vespasian’s miracle was real, right?
A of Tyana’s miracles were recorded first hand by his disciple Damis. From which you conclude Apollonius’ miracles were real, right?
That is not the case with Christianity which the Gospels were written 30 years or even earlier, too early to evolve into a myth, with eye witnesses still alive to confirm if it was true or heretical.
30 years you say? Please name the earliest manuscript of the Gospel of Mt, of Mk, of Lk, of Jn.
Moonsray
April 19, 2009 at 4:31 am
Bob, love the yahoo question cut-and-paste by the ways. Wow..you sound angry, eh? I can read your vibes straight from your words…its not that serious..anyways…I stand corrected in saying that most of them were myths, I was getting ahead of myself…however let me clarify on a few things:
Do I know if any of them performed actual miracles? I don’t know and I don’t think you know if they did or didn’t. I know that Jesus wasn’t the only one that performed miracles so did his disciples and so did other non-Christians. I’ll tell you what I do know.
Alexander the Great. Now, I do know that anything written 500 years later is plenty of time to evolve into a myth as we have seen in Alexander the Great who’s FIRST biography was written in 323 BC by Arian and Plutarch, 400 years later. For the first 500 years his bio were kept in tact and new stories didn’t emerge until AFTER those 2 authors. Survey says: MYTH!!
We know that his mother was Olympias and his father was Philip of Macedon. We have NO evidence saying he was a son of God. A matter of fact, according to Plutarch, Alexander’s mother explicitly rejected the idea of his conception by Zeus by saying in reference to Zeus’ wife,
“Will not Alexander cease slandering me to Hera?”
This story about Olympias being impregnated by Zeus was propaganda designed to support Alexander’s demand for worship.
Surprisingly enough we barely have anything regarding his birth and what we do have is limited with little historical value.
- Historian, Peter Green Alexander of Macedon, Berkley University of California Press 1991
Caesar died in 44BC and the Suetonius and Tacitus talks about him 165 years later!!
Survey says: MYTH
Apollonius has a bio from one dude named Philostratus almost 160 years later! How many sources did he have besides that guy?….ZERO, NADA, NONE! Who was actually alive in the time of Apollonius to verify it with Philostratus that what he said about him was correct? NONE!!
…survey says: MYTH!!
Augustus there is only one miracle performed by him–the silencing of the frogs when he was a toddler. That’s all I know, unless you have the inside scoop that I don’t know
“As soon as he [Augustus] began to talk, it chanced that the frogs were making a great noise at this grandfather’s country place’ he bade them be silent, and they say that since then no frog has ever croaked there.” [Suetonius, Aug. 94.7]
Before the third-century AD, we have NO emperor-performed miracles ascribed to Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellus, Titus, Domitian, Nerva, Trajan, Hadrain, Antionius Pius, Commodus, Pertinax, Didius Julianis, or Severus–even though a couple of these required divine worship!
Vespasian- his miracles written by Tacitus. Oh guess where Tacitus got his info from? He is reporting what was reported to him on what was reported to him from Vespasian in Egypt. Too many middle men. The funny thing is that none of the witnesses were even named!! Vespasian was even doubtful about his own powers (Tacitus Histories)
“Vespasian, who, feeling his death-agony approaching, remarked with blunt humor, ‘Oh dear, I think I’m becoming a god.’ [RRE:91f]
Even in that time, it was not uncommon for some ruler/politician to “claim” they performed miracles in order to gain political and financial support from the mass and help them advance in their careers. Smart move from if you wanted to gain popularity.
Scipio Africanus, WHERE DOES IT SAY HE PERFORMED A MIRACLE, SON OF GOD, BORN OF A VIRGIN AND ALL THAT? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but where are you getting that info from? Please, do tell and Wikipedia doesn’t count.
Dionysus was born of a virgin? Where does it say that? I think you need to re evaluate that mythology again! There are no signs of virgin birth.
-Barry Powells Classical Myth Prenctice Hall Third Edition
Turning water into wine?? The FIRST mentions of that was Achilles Tacitus, in his romance novel, Leucippe and Cleitophon in the second century. If it was anyone that copied from anyone, it was FROM Christianity! Timing is also important too, Bob!! Don’t forget that.
Now, I do know that Roman emperors claimed to be divine and FORCED people to worship them or face death. Now who is supposed to object to that? Any man fearing for his life back then would probably call him son of God too and agree that he performed miracles! It was the opposite for Christians back then. It was the reverse effect: they actually got killed for believing that someone as Jesus was the Son of God and born of the Virgin and not worshiping Roman emperors. I will address that later
Pyhthia I don’t know too much about her. You say she was archeologically confirmed?? She was first mentioned in a play. There is much confusion that Pythia was actually a cult of Gaia or some serpent slained by Apollo. Her origins are very uncertain and some experts believe that much of the story was influenced though Asian cultures over time. Be more specific
Please Bob, since you know soooo much about ancient religion please tell me where I can find these sources? Please enlighten me. I might not know too much about ancient literature ( and I won’t tell anyone else that you don’t either, I promise) and sorry I don’t have a Masters in Ancient Culture from Oxford, Yale, Princeton, and Harvard like you do (come on, who are we fooling here?) but I do know more about Christianity!
NOW LET’S LOOK AT THE TIME FRAME
Polycarp (110AD) and Ignatius (107AD), Clement (95AD) quoted from the Gospels. So we know that the Gospels had to have been written BEFORE that date. Now, I take it that you don’t know anything about the Bible. Jesus predicted a significant event would occur: The Jewish Temple would be destroyed. Now, we know that the New Testament writers did not include this significant event AT ALL because the Temple had not been destroyed yet! Something like that significant would have surely been written. They wrote that the Temple was still there. The Temple was actually destroyed 70AD by the Romans meaning that what they wrote was prior to 70AD. Clement also mentions that Paul was executed by Nero in 68AD so doesn’t that mean that Paul’s letters HAD TO BE BEFORE 68AD? Josephus also writes that James in Antiquities Book 20: chapter 9: that he was killed in 62 AD but the New Testament writers wrote about James as if he was still alive and nothing about his death. Doesn’t that imply that they wrote about James and the Book of James, written by James, himself, had HAD TO BE BEFORE 62AD?
We also know Luke the historian wrote Acts in which Paul was still alive so it had to be written BEFORE Paul’s death in 68AD. When Luke wrote Acts, the recipient was to Theohilus, a Roman official. In it he referred to his book “former writing” which was the Gospel of Luke, so The Gospel of Luke HAD to be written BEFORE ACTS and BEFORE 68 AD. Another thing, look up when Paul’s letters to Corinthians were written! If it was written in 55AD, then it only makes sense that the Gospels were written BEFORE that date.
Polycarp died around 150AD and was a disciple of John the Apostle who wrote the Gospels of John. Wouldn’t it LOGICALLY make sense that John’s Gospel HAD to be written before 150 AD?
What about Clement of Rome, disciple of Peter according to Tertullian. His only surviving manuscripts, First Epistle of Clement, was the letters to the early Church of Corinth was no later than 100AD so wouldn’t it make sense that Peter’s writings were written BEFORE 100AD? Another writing in 60 years or less after Jesus died.
What about the First and Second Book of Peter, written by the apostle Peter himself, 1 of the 12 disciples of Christ? The Annuario Pontificio and the early Church tradition says that he died around 65AD. Doesn’t that mean that what he wrote had to have occurred BEFORE his death? Check it out yourself Mr. Expert.
Scholars believe that Mark was written before these other Gospels. So if these Gospels were written no later than 65AD, then Mark had to be written BEFORE that date…each one of these dates were written with a maximum gap of 30 years after the death of JESUS with eye witnesses still alive! Now how much weight is that?
The Rylands Library Papyrus P52, The earliest fragments of the Gospels of John, as early as 100 AD. If that was A COPY, then we know that the original HAD to be written before that date. So we at least have evidence that something was written within 60-95 years after Jesus died in which eye witnesses were still alive.
In 125 AD, Papias specifically affirmed that Mark accurately recorded Peter’s eye witness testimony. In fact he says “Mark made no mistakes” and not to include “any false statement”. Iraneus says that “Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, handed down to us in writing the substance of Peter’s preaching”
Shall I keep going?
SO WHAT ABOUT FIRST HAND EYE WITNESSES?
Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact
Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
Acts 4:18-20 For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.
Acts 5:30-32 We are witnesses of these things, and so in the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
Acts 10:39-40 We are witnesses of everything he did the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem, They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.
1 Peter 5:1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed.
2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were witnesses of his majesty.
1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we gave seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched.
So in short, Peter and John, the disciples of Jesus, both claimed to have been witnesses!!
So please provide me with your so-called witness for ancient history, expert boy. Oh by the ways, if you say that eye witnesses means proof that HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GRAND FATHER EXISTED?
According to your very own logic, do you have any proof? Do you have his photo? Do you have his youtube video? His diary? Eye witnesses? His yearbook? Can you google him up? Nope, so how do you know he ever existed?
So let me ask you this- If Peter and James, the disciples of Jesus, were martyred for preaching about Jesus, and John was exiled to an island, WHAT in the world would inspire Matthew, Mark, Luke to testify if they had everything to lose? What sense is that? Matthew, who wrote the one of the Gospels was slained in Nadabah, A.D. 60. Please name ONE person that you know would die by writing some make believe fairy tale? ummmm.none.
Also read Fox’s book of Martyrs on how Peter, Paul, Mark, and Luke were persecuted, thrown in prison, and killed? Who wants to die for writing a fairy tale?
Now you say that Josephus and Tacitus also wrote about legends too so that means what they said had to be real according to my logic? If you actually read Josephus works would you not KNOW the difference if he was writing about myth of history? Antiquities of the Jews was considered a HISTORY book, not a fairy tale book so what he was writing was believed to be actual history! So what he wrote about Jesus and James and Pontius Pilate IS CONSIDERED HISTORY, NOT FABLE.
WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT CHRISTIANS DIED RATHER THAT RECANTING?
Polycarp, the disciple of John, is an excellent example and a historical reality where he refused to worship Ceaser and call him God so he was put to death. Look it up!
Stephen in Acts who was martyred by Sanhedrin, the Jewish rulers, because he worshiped Christ? That happened BEFORE 62AD
Ignatius, another disciple of John the apostle, who was martyred in 117AD, under the rule of Trajan, because he refused to worship idols and demons?
Timon and Parmenas were beheaded in 44AD – Fox’s Book of Martyrs
STUDY HISTORY before asking an ignorant question like that and ask yourself, WHY were they martyred?
Pliny writes in a letter to Trajan (c. 112 AD):
“I have never been present at an examination of Christians. So, I do not know the nature or the extent of the punishments usually dealt out to them, nor the grounds for starting an investigation and how far it should be carried…For the moment this is the line I have taken with all persons brought before me on the charge of being Christians. I have asked them in person if they are Christians; if they admit it, I repeat the question a second and a third time, with a warning of the punishment awaiting them. If they persist, I order them to be led away for punishment; for whatever the nature of their admission, I am convinced that their stubbornness and unshakeable obstinacy ought to be punished. There have been others similarly fanatical who are Roman citizens; I have entered them on the list of persons to be sent to Rome for punishment…. I considered that I should dismiss any who denied that they were or ever had been Christians, once they had repeated after me a formula of invocation to the gods and had made offerings of wine and incense to your statue (which I had ordered to be brought into court for this purpose along with images of the gods), and furthermore had cursed the name of Christ. Real Christians (I understand) can never be induced to do these things….They declared that the sum total of their guilt or error amounted to no more than this: they had met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately among themselves in honor of Christ as if to a god, and also to bind themselves by oath, not for any criminal purpose, but to abstain from theft, robbery and adultery, to commit no breach of trust and not to refuse to return a deposit upon demand. After this ceremony it had been their custom to disperse and later to take food of an ordinary harmless kind. But they had in fact given this up since my edict, issued on your instructions which banned all political societies. This made me decide it was all the more necessary to extract the truth from two slave women (whom they call `deaconesses’ by torture. I found nothing but a degenerate sort of cult carried to extravagant lengths… I have therefore postponed any further examination and hastened to consult you…”
So we have at least 80 years after Jesus’ death, Christian were being persecuted
But let me flip the script and ask you some questions since you gave me an impression that you’re an expert in your field.
The objection isn’t the conversion but WHY they converted
1. Why do YOU think so many Jews abandoned their faith and converted to Christianity?
2. Why do you think that Christians were being persecuted and dying for their faith?
Waiting for your response…..
herqlez253
April 20, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Soooo, Jesus’ mind reading magic is real, and the emperor of Rome is a myth?
Good to know.
Moonsray
April 21, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Bob, that’s it? Anyways
No, that’s not what I said so let me clarify it for you because you didn’t read it correctly. I said I got ahead of myself so I corrected myself.
Emperor of Rome is a REAL person..however, if he actually did perform miracles, I don’t know, that’s another issue. My reason WHY its unreasonable to believe that because what was written about his miracles were written AFTER hundreds of years later, as the historical example I gave you says. Does that make sense now?
Now, back to your original question:
Why weren’t the things ascribed to Jesus considered a myth? Well I already gave you my reasons.
My question to you is-
If you took the time to research about other myths, then why didn’t you take the time to find the actual answer for yourself about Jesus but choose to remain stuck on the objective?
That only tells me 3 things about you:
1. You actually couldn’t find the answer (and I don’t blame you because it’s not always easy to no matter how much anyone is an expert)
2. You were too lazy or didn’t have the time to. (I get like that sometimes and so does a lot of people. Also, researching is time consuming sometimes)
OR
3. The answers don’t matter because you are trying to attack Christianity on purpose and only cherry picking certain topics to best suit your argument. (Many people use anti-Christian propaganda such as Zeitgeist, Infidels, or Acharya S works and immediately believe without further personal investigation)
Bob, you’re a smart person. If you REALLY wanted to find the answers, you DESIRED to find the answers, and you WERE unbiased and open minded, then you would’ve eventually found the answers you were looking for.
If you truly want the answers then this is my suggestion:
Find out if what the New Testament writers were saying is REAL
Find out WHY the New Testament writers said those things
Find out if WHAT they said about Jesus was real
That’s why the concept of Jesus doesn’t make any sense to you at all. If What Jesus said about himself is ACTUALLY true, then non-believers that CHOOSE to reject him is going to find themselves in an eternal consequence.
Don’t be influenced by Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, Baptists, and all those other Christians. Find out for yourself, receive your own testimony, and ask the Holy Spirit and it will reveal and guide you to the answers. If what Jesus said about God is actually true, then why would God deny you the answer if you truly seek Him?
Well Bob, one thing for sure is that we are all going to die one day. It’s inescapable and a fact of life. After that, nothing may happen, so it really doesn’t matter; We may be reincarnated again, so it doesn’t really matter that much; or we are actually going to face judgment in the presence of the Holy One that created us and give Him our personal account….so what we do in our life here actually matters.
As a friend, think of what you really have to lose and how much you have to gain for seeking God. Because it might….i mean really might be worth it.
herqlez253
April 21, 2009 at 5:16 pm
My reason WHY its unreasonable to believe that because what was written about his miracles were written AFTER hundreds of years later, as the historical example I gave you says. Does that make sense now?
So the only reason you believe the father of Alexander the Great wasn’t a snake is….there’s no extant record of the story for, you imagine, 500 years? That’s it. Other than that, sounds OK to you? So it could be dad was a slimy, crawing, wiggling serpent (species 1) who had sex with a human woman (species 2), and it could be the combination of snake sperm and person egg led to a human baby being born. That you don’t have any trouble with. That could be true, according to you. It’s just the 500 year bit that tells you the story is a phony made up myth? That about it? Am I understanding you right?
OK then, let me ask you about the god Glycon. Glycon was the son of the God Apollo, who …
… came to Earth through a miraculous birth,
… was the Earthly manifestation of divinity,
… came to earth in fulfillment of divine prophecy,
… gave his chief believer the power of prophecy,
… gave believers the power to speak in tongues,
… performed miracles,
… healed the sick,
… raised the dead.
Lucian who went to Glycon’s oracle himself, while Glycon was alive. Lucian records [Alexander the False Prophet] these myths were told by Glycon’s priest Alexander of Abnoteichus – and they were all told immediately at the time Glycon was invented. Not 500 years. Not 500 DAYS. Immediately.
May I conclude from this that Glycon was the Son of God who healed the sick and raised the dead?
Or is it possible that when ancient people made up gods, the things they put in their god stories were magic births, prophesies, miracles, healings and raising the dead? It is possible the Glycon myths were invented on the spot? Is it possible the Jesus myths were invented on the spot?
———————
“If What Jesus said about himself is ACTUALLY true…”
What an odd thing to say. Why in the world do you imagine you know what Jesus said? Jesus didn’t write anything down. The only “record” we have come from the gospel legends. And you know of course those can’t be true. I mean the “quotations” in the gospels can’t be true.
It is simply not possible for humans to remember extended verbatim quotations for hours, let alone months and years. I can’t do it. You can’t do it. The gospel writers couldn’t do it. And yet they pretended they could. “Jesus said this.” “Jesus said that” over and over. It can’t be true they could quote his words. They must have been making them up. And they knew it. They were liars. Serial liars.
And you think you know what Jesus ACTUALLY said. Preposterous.
Moonsray
April 21, 2009 at 7:43 pm
So the only reason you believe the father of Alexander the Great wasn’t a snake is….there’s no extant record of the story for, you imagine, 500 years? That’s it. Other than that, sounds OK to you? So it could be dad was a slimy, crawing, wiggling serpent (species 1) who had sex with a human woman (species 2), and it could be the combination of snake sperm and person egg led to a human baby being born. That you don’t have any trouble with. That could be true, according to you. It’s just the 500 year bit that tells you the story is a phony made up myth? That about it? Am I understanding you right?
* sigh * ..must I go on? The reason why you have any clue at all about Alexander at all is because of what the source of history says! There is no question that Alexander’s father was Philip of Macedonia and was assassinated in 336 BC. Let me put it in another perspective to help you understand:
Lets say there was this King name Joe who lived 1AD
Joe’s FIRST biography was written by ONLY 2 guys 500AD (500 years later) with no eye witnesses even alive to verify or cross check anything. Joe’s biography included his life as a prince and king and that his parents were just your average typical King and Queen.
Now let’s say that by the year 800AD (that’s 3 hundred years later) Joe’s biography was now saying that he was a “son of God” born from some “serpent king” and raised the dead!
Now what’s wrong with that picture, Bob???
I’ll tell you the problems because you don’t understand:
1. His first biography was written 500 years later! Ask any historian at any university right now if something that long would be considered precise and valid. Hey, don’t take my word for it.
2. We are limited to only 2 original sources.
3. There are no living eye witnesses to give any testimonies, in fact, no actual names and sources mentioned at all.
4. His original biographies DOES NOT match his biographies 300 years later
5. There was no mass effect that took place such as an entire religion with millions of people IMMEDIATELY forming and actually LASTING longer than a hundred years because they believed he was the son of god.
Now, would it be an educated assumption that mythical elements were developed over time and indicates a higher probability? Does this make sense that these are indications of a myth? If you don’t understand this, then I can’t help you. Well let me throw the question right back at you, Bob.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ALEXANDER’S FATHER AND MOTHER WAS A SNAKE? IF NOT, THEN WHAT’S YOUR REASON? PLEASE TELL ME.
OK then, let me ask you about the god Glycon. Glycon was the son of the God Apollo, who …
… came to Earth through a miraculous birth,
… was the Earthly manifestation of divinity,
… came to earth in fulfillment of divine prophecy,
… gave his chief believer the power of prophecy,
… gave believers the power to speak in tongues,
… performed miracles,
… healed the sick,
… raised the dead.
Lucian who went to Glycon’s oracle himself, while Glycon was alive. Lucian records [Alexander the False Prophet] these myths were told by Glycon’s priest Alexander of Abnoteichus – and they were all told immediately at the time Glycon was invented. Not 500 years. Not 500 DAYS. Immediately.
May I conclude from this that Glycon was the Son of God who healed the sick and raised the dead?
Or is it possible that when ancient people made up gods, the things they put in their god stories were magic births, prophesies, miracles, healings and raising the dead? It is possible the Glycon myths were invented on the spot? Is it possible the Jesus myths were invented on the spot?
STUDY HISTORY BEFORE THROWING GARBAGE LIKE THAT. GLYCON WAS INVENTED OVER 130 YEARS LATER AFTER CHRISTIANITY! WHO DO YOU THINK COPIED WHO? CHECK THE DATES! LUCIEN EVEN ADMITS THAT ALEXANDER WAS A FRAUD! Its found in the book, “Culture and Society in Lucian”
It only lasted a few hundred years. That’s it
Yes, its possible that anyone can make false god and spread so quickly. But how long can it be preserved and stand scrutiny is also important. If Glycon was so real, then where are all the followers now? Did anyone die in the name of Glycon? Are there any eye witnesses that testifed? Was Glycon prophesied thousands of years later actually fulfilling almost 100 prophecies? How many secular evidences are there?
———————
What an odd thing to say. Why in the world do you imagine you know what Jesus said? Jesus didn’t write anything down. The only “record” we have come from the gospel legends. And you know of course those can’t be true. I mean the “quotations” in the gospels can’t be true.
It is simply not possible for humans to remember extended verbatim quotations for hours, let alone months and years. I can’t do it. You can’t do it. The gospel writers couldn’t do it. And yet they pretended they could. “Jesus said this.” “Jesus said that” over and over. It can’t be true they could quote his words. They must have been making them up. And they knew it. They were liars. Serial liars.
* sigh * Here we go again. Since you give me the impression that you never READ the Bible, there are more than 4 guys writing it down! Communities consisting of thousands of members that were alive and first hand witnesses of Jesus were already establishing churches! Furthermore it was an oral tradition, meaning they had to rely on their memories! HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU KNOW WHAT ANYBODY SAID SUCH AS PRESIDENTS, RULERS, OR LEADERS IN THE PAST? Then we will NEVER know history if we go with your logic. I’m going to go ahead and save myself the favor of explaining any more because you “just don’t get it” and give you some more analogies.
Let’s say that you and 11 of your buddies came across Fred, who performed miracles in front of your eyes! He also claimed to be God and instructed you to tell everyone his message! So how would you do this?
Obviously you tell everyone about it and eventually record it!
Now why would you meticulous preserve as much of teaching as possible? Because you believe he really is the God based on his miracles he performed in front of you, you need to get his message across, and you claimed to have witness his miracles in front of your face!!
Also, because something like that was soooo significant! I mean miraculous! Do you think you would forget something powerful that you witness? We’re not talking about trying to remember your boring history class in 8th grade but healing of the blind, sick, deaf, dead in front of your very own eyes!
You and your buddies are so convicted and all seen it together that NO ONE can convince you otherwise even if it meant your life!
This was the case with the disciples!
The Bible doesn’t contain EVERY SINGLE teaching just as much as they could remember because it was significant. John, a personal eye witness and apostle of Jesus even says this:
John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
you wouldn’t know that because you don’t read the Bible.
Bob, you always seem to position yourself with more questions for yourself. This is starting to be an exhausting trivia game for me. It’s easy to ask questions but you fail to take a step further and even do any research for yourself. You like to pick what you ears like to listen to and what your eyes like to see.
It is a fact that Peter and Paul died and John was thrown into prison.
What was the motive and incentive for these men to put their lives at stake, become persecuted, and go through all that trouble and time to invent a lie, and keeping lying over and over again (making sure that the whole group all agreed to keep the same lie together to the end) and die about it?
Remember these men were cowards and ignorant because they too couldn’t even understand Jesus teachings.
SO, who in the world does that and what for? If you really can’t give a mature answer that makes sense, then keep it to yourself.
YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINIONS BUT NOT YOUR OWN FACTS.
You choose to reject Christ, then that’s all on you. I can’t judge you but I sense you have a lot of hatred towards Him.
herqlez253
April 21, 2009 at 10:10 pm
I’ll tell you the problems because you don’t understand:
1. His first biography was written 500 years later! Ask any historian at any university right now if something that long would be considered precise and valid. Hey, don’t take my word for it.
2. We are limited to only 2 original sources.
3. There are no living eye witnesses to give any testimonies, in fact, no actual names and sources mentioned at all.
4. His original biographies DOES NOT match his biographies 300 years later
Yeah, yeah, I got it. You’re certain the father of Alexander the Great wasn’t a snake because….there’s a gap in the historical record. The snake father, woman mother part, that’s not a problem for you. That you could believe. It’s the gap business that settles it for you.
BTW please cite and quote your sources for this gap. If you can.
5. There was no mass effect that took place such as an entire religion with millions of people IMMEDIATELY forming and actually LASTING longer than a hundred years because they believed he was the son of god.
We both know you’re making up “millions” and “IMMEDIATELY.” Talk about “gap in the records.”
Again, snake father, woman mother, that’s good for you. That you could believe. It’s imaginary, invented, made up millions and imaginary, invented, made up IMMEDIATELY that clinch it for you.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ALEXANDER’S FATHER AND MOTHER WAS A SNAKE? IF NOT, THEN WHAT’S YOUR REASON? PLEASE TELL ME.
Unlike you, I don’t believe in pagan magic. I know the ancients invented thousands of magical myths. I can spot ‘em when I see ‘em; they’re all about magic. Alexander myths. Glycon myths. Jesus myths. All of a sort.
STUDY HISTORY BEFORE THROWING GARBAGE LIKE THAT. GLYCON WAS INVENTED OVER 130 YEARS LATER AFTER CHRISTIANITY! WHO DO YOU THINK COPIED WHO? CHECK THE DATES! LUCIEN EVEN ADMITS THAT ALEXANDER WAS A FRAUD! Its found in the book, “Culture and Society in Lucian”
Yes Glycon was a fraud. The title of the book, Pseudomantis sort of gives that away. That’s rather the point, don’t you see. Glycon had myths. Glycon’s myths were frauds. Made up stories. We agree.
So you agree then that because the ideas of miracles and prophesies and raising the dead all preexisted Glycon, then Alexander must have borrowed them. Excellent.
Of course having read Lucian – you have read Lucian, right? You can quote Lucian on the Paph. opinion of Christiantiy, right? – you know what the Paphlygonians thought about Christians. May I ask how does their opinion figure into your borrowed – from – Christianity theory? Or shall we just agree you don’t know the basic facts?
And the main point is, if these ideas – miracles, prophesies, raising the dead, magic god sent dreams as messanges from god, etc. – if they preexisted Glycon, then Glyconism must have borrowed them. We agree. And if they also preexisted Christianity , then Christianity borrowed them too, right? Otherwise you’d just making it up as you go along, changing the rules so you’d be sure to get the answer you want. You’d never do that, right? You’ll reason the same with Glycon as with Jesus, right?
Do you happen to know if any pagan religions that preexisted Christianity, did any of them believe in miracles? Prophesies? Raising the dead? Magic god sent dreams as messages from god? Does the preexistence of all those ideas in paganism figure into your analysis at all?
Yes, its possible that anyone can make false god and spread so quickly.
Excellent. Glycon stories could be myths. Jesus stories could be myths – as far as the timing of the myth story is concerned. Excellent. I accept that you concede the point.
But how long can it be preserved and stand scrutiny is also important. If Glycon was so real, then where are all the followers now? Did anyone die in the name of Glycon? Are there any eye witnesses that testifed? Was Glycon prophesied thousands of years later actually fulfilling almost 100 prophecies? How many secular evidences are there?
Having conceded your original point, you now invent new ones. And not one, but several. How droll.
———————
* sigh * Here we go again. Since you give me the impression that you never READ the Bible, there are more than 4 guys writing it down! Communities consisting of thousands of members that were alive and first hand witnesses of Jesus were already establishing churches!
Too late. The time to capture Jesus’ words was right as he said them. One second later, they were gone.
#1. It can’t be done. You can’t do it. I couldn’t do it. It can’t be done. Unless you’re sitting there with a pen in hand, using shorthand, it is not humanly possible to record what someone says verbatim. Yet the gospels pretend that’s what they do. The gospels are lies.
#2. Communities of thousands are irrelevant. The only people there when Jesus said what Jesus said (so the legend goes) were the disciples – or no one! The gospels pretend to tell, verbatim, what Jesus said when there were no disciples there. The gospels are lies.
Furthermore it was an oral tradition, meaning they had to rely on their memories! HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU KNOW WHAT ANYBODY SAID SUCH AS PRESIDENTS, RULERS, OR LEADERS IN THE PAST? Then we will NEVER know history if we go with your logic. I’m going to go ahead and save myself the favor of explaining any more because you “just don’t get it” and give you some more analogies.
I have no idea what any ancient leaders said verbatim. They didn’t have the technology. They made it up. You really didn’t know this? You thought Socrates really said all that stuff just like Plato wrote it? And Herodotus quoting Xerxes 60 years earlier, in another country, with no Greeks in the room –you thought that was real?!! You’re kidding, right?
Let’s say that you and 11 of your buddies came across Fred, who performed miracles in front of your eyes! He also claimed to be God and instructed you to tell everyone his message! So how would you do this?
Circular. You don’t know what he said. That’s the point at issue, remember?
Obviously you tell everyone about it and eventually record it!
Quick, write down verbatim what your preacher sermonized 6 weeks ago. Three days ago. You can’t. No one can. It can’t be done. Unless you’re sitting there with a pen in hand, using shorthand, it is not humanly possible to record what someone says verbatim. Yet the gospels pretend that’s what they do. The gospels are lies.
And anyway you’re misrepresenting what the bible contains. ‘Herod… said to his servants, “This is John the Baptist, he has been raised from the dead; that is why these powers are at work in him.” ‘[Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 14:1- 2] The gospels record words of the disciples, Herod, angels, demons, satan, tax collectors, and crowds of people all saying the same words all together. The gospels even record long speeches spoken in dreams, and verbatim accounts of inner thoughts that were never spoken, but that Jesus knew because He could read minds. How the gospeler knew exactly what words the Pharisees thought and Jesus mind-read, the gospel doesn’t say. Because it can’t. It’s not possible. Crowds don’t all think the same thoughts all at the same time. And people can’t mind read. It’s a lie. The gospel writers are liars.
But you imagine you know what Jesus said. Really.
Moonsray
April 22, 2009 at 12:04 am
BTW please cite and quote your sources for this gap. If you can.
Citation: Peter Green, Alexander of Macedon (Berkley University of California Press 1991, page 37)
—————————————-
Unlike you, I don’t believe in pagan magic. I know the ancients invented thousands of magical myths. I can spot ‘em when I see ‘em; they’re all about magic. Alexander myths. Glycon myths. Jesus myths. All of a sort.
They’re all magic huh? So whats your definition of magic and miracles and how do you know it doesn’t exist, I would like to know please.
———————————–
And the main point is, if these ideas – miracles, prophesies, raising the dead, magic god sent dreams as messanges from god, etc. – if they preexisted Glycon, then Glyconism must have borrowed them. We agree. And if they also preexisted Christianity , then Christianity borrowed them too, right? Otherwise you’d just making it up as you go along, changing the rules so you’d be sure to get the answer you want. You’d never do that, right? You’ll reason the same with Glycon as with Jesus, right?
Do you happen to know if any pagan religions that preexisted Christianity, did any of them believe in miracles? Prophesies? Raising the dead? Magic god sent dreams as messages from god? Does the preexistence of all those ideas in paganism figure into your analysis at all?
So just because a few parallels are drawn means one influenced the other? Is that what you conclude? Are you familiar with some of the beliefs of ancient Aborigines isolated in the island of New Zealand for thousands of years as well as ancient tribes isolated in South America that have never encountered each other? How do you explain the parallels that they influenced each other is they have NEVER encountered each other and have been separated on other parts of the world for thousands of years?
How do you explain the parallels between JFK and Lincoln? Is JFK actually Lincoln?
———————
Too late. The time to capture Jesus’ words was right as he said them. One second later, they were gone.
#1. It can’t be done. You can’t do it. I couldn’t do it. It can’t be done. Unless you’re sitting there with a pen in hand, using shorthand, it is not humanly possible to record what someone says verbatim. Yet the gospels pretend that’s what they do. The gospels are lies.
Now this has to be the most ridiculous conclusion I have ever heard in any blog. Your conclusion is built on the following premises:
1. The ONLY way absolute infallible Truth can be captured is through transmission of pen in handy and technology at that EXACT TIME, 100% OF THE TIME.
2. Truths can NEVER be transmitted orally
3. Peoples memories are unreliable and they are incapable of producing infallible Truths and its also IMPOSSIBLE 100% of the time to pass on truth.
4. If its NOT VERBATIM it’s not true and never will be true so it must be dismissed
5. Anything that is not 100% True is completely false, even if it contained 99.99% truth.
That’s what you’re telling me!!!! Let me give you a scenario. Let’s say some big bald guy with jeans and a yellow shirt broke into your house and stole your Xbox. After he stole your X-Box, he got on the phone and said the following words exactly, “I got the XBOX and I’m headed out!”
10 hours later, 5 key witnesses from your apartment testified and gave their accounts to you personally by stating the following respectively:
Witness#1: I saw a bald man with a light colored shirt break into your house
Witness#2 I saw a man with a yellow shirt break into your house and said “He stole the Xbox”
Witness#3 I saw someone big with jeans in front of your house and he got on the phone
Witness #4 I only heard someone say “I took the XBOX and I’m leaving”
Witness#5 I saw someone break into your house with an XBOX and got on the phone.
Now, is there anyway to conveniently extract info from these witnesses and produce any truths? According to you and your logic, NO! Its impossible! Why?
- Because they didn’t write it down and if they did, it wasn’t at that exact time!
- They gave only parallel accounts, none of them verbatim.
- They didn’t use technology at that exact time.
- We can’t rely on their memories alone since it doesn’t yield infallible truths
- Since they said it orally, it doesn’t constitute as real Truth so they must be lying!
So in other words, history can not be known! That is absurd and DEFIES ALL COMMON SENSE! That means that every history is a lie and every historian, scientist, and news reporter are all liars. The judicial system is irrelevant! Do you know how ridiculous you sound?
Moonray, this is where you contradict yourself:
1. How do you know that the earth was created since no one was there to write it down and we didn’t have the technology at that time?
2. How do you know what you did 5 hours ago since you didn’t write it down at the exact time verbatim? So your memories is all an illusion!
3. How do you know that the disciples were lying since you were not present at that exact time to write their lies in pen verbatim?
4. If someone wrote something down in a pen verbatim at that exact time how do you verify they did that? You would need another guy to write down verbatim about the guy writing down verbatim and it would go on infinitely!
5. Why do you refer to historical examples when history is the very thing you proclaim can’t be truthful? (I wonder what that makes you)
6. How do you remember that you “can’t remember things that long ago” especially if our memories are lies according to you? You don’t make any sense!
7. Did you actually write down in pen verbatim the statement that “writing down in pen verbatim at that time only produces truth”? Once again, you don’t make any sense!! You keep contradicting yourself!
YOU DON’T MAKE ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER! YOU ALSO INADVERTENTLY AND OPENLY CONFESSED THAT YOU ARE A LIAR SINCE YOU DIDN’T WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN IN PEN VERBATIM AT THAT EXACT TIME!! SO WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU SAY?
So how come you haven’t answered my previous question? I will state it again.
Question #1
What was the motive and incentive for these men to put their lives at stake, become persecuted, and go through all that trouble and time to invent a lie, and keeping lying over and over again (making sure that the whole group all agreed to keep the same lie together to the end) and die about it? Please provide valid proof!
Question #2
How do you know for a fact that Christianity borrowed myths from these religions and who did they borrow it from? I want proof!
herqlez253
April 22, 2009 at 8:08 pm
One more thing to add, I never claimed that the writers said that EVERYTHING that Jesus said is 100% verbatim but unlike you, unless its verbatim at that exact time, its not truthful so here is another scenario for you:
Your 5 friends heard the following on the radio and wrote it down 1 day later:
friend #1″There is a classic car expo tomorrow at Lincoln Ave”
friend #2″There is some car show Saturday at Lincoln Street”
friend #3″There is the 2009 show for classic cars tomorrow 3pm at Lincoln”
friend #4″There is some kind of show on Saturday late afternoon”
friend #5″There is the annual CLASSIC CAR CONVENTION being held really soon”
Now, even though there are slight variants such as detail and divergent statements is it possible to know the meaning and understanding of the message with 5 different accounts? According you, NO, because it’s not verbatim!!! Ask someone in the third grade and see if they can easily distinguish and assemble what the overall meaning is and comprehend what I’m talking about.
That example I gave you is the same case with the New Testament writers! You wouldn’t know because you don’t understand the Bible. Furthermore, its not even about the Bible, its about COMMON SENSE!
herqlez253
April 22, 2009 at 10:19 pm
BTW please cite and quote your sources for this gap. If you can.
Citation: Peter Green, Alexander of Macedon (Berkley University of California Press 1991, page 37)
Don’t have it. What are the ancient citations?
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Unlike you, I don’t believe in pagan magic. I know the ancients invented thousands of magical myths. I can spot ‘em when I see ‘em; they’re all about magic. Alexander myths. Glycon myths. Jesus myths. All of a sort.
They’re all magic huh? So what’s your definition of magic and miracles and how do you know it doesn’t exist, I would like to know please.
That’s another discussion. I accept for now that you imagine it is possible Apollonius of Tyana raised people from the dead, and Osiris died and rose and lives in heaven where He judges men’s souls, and the God Zeus came to Earth as a cow.
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So just because a few parallels are drawn means one influenced the other? Is that what you conclude?
No, that’s what you conclude . On learning that Glycon did many things Jesus did, you did a quick google, learned Glycon was later, and immediately concluded Glycon must have borrowed. Now other facts are raised and you want to apply different rules – because you’re not really thinking it through, you’re just jumping to whatever excuse gets you out of the next mess. Trouble is it is not possible to come up with a theory that explains all the facts and still makes Jesus unique. If Glycon copied, then Jesus copied. If Jesus didn’t copy then you have no explanation for Glycon. And it’s not just Glycon. Our Jesus stories are full of silly pagan ideas – demons cause disease, lepers are unclean, magic dreams, prophecies, magic gods in the sky – that are deeply deeply pagan back to the beginning of recorded history. These ideas were part of the culture before Jesus, after Jesus, during Jesus. And these ideas are in our bible.
Are you familiar with some of the beliefs of ancient Aborigines isolated in the island of New Zealand for thousands of years as well as ancient tribes isolated in South America that have never encountered each other? How do you explain the parallels that they influenced each other is they have NEVER encountered each other and have been separated on other parts of the world for thousands of years?
So far, since you have named none and given no evidence, I explain them as your invention.
But even so, your point is irrelevant. The early Christians grew up in ancient culture—from which they knew about magic dreams, and knew that demons caused disease, and knew that gods lived in the sky and sent their sons to Earth. Knowing those things they could not then have come up with them on their own, not any more than you yourself can now invent paper. You already know about paper. If you make paper, the only thing you can possibly do is copy the idea.
How do you explain the parallels between JFK and Lincoln? Is JFK actually Lincoln?
There are no parallels, there are coincidences. The apologists’ fascination with coincidence I explain by their fundamental lack of understanding of the issue. And their desperation to change the subject.
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Too late. The time to capture Jesus’ words was right as he said them. One second later, they were gone.
#1. It can’t be done. You can’t do it. I couldn’t do it. It can’t be done. Unless you’re sitting there with a pen in hand, using shorthand, it is not humanly possible to record what someone says verbatim. Yet the gospels pretend that’s what they do. The gospels are lies.
Now this has to be the most ridiculous conclusion I have ever heard in any blog. Your conclusion is built on the following premises:
[snip for brevity]
Now, is there anyway to conveniently extract info from these witnesses and produce any truths? According to you and your logic, NO! Its impossible! Why?
….
So in other words, history can not be known! That is absurd and DEFIES ALL COMMON SENSE! That means that every history is a lie and every historian, scientist, and news reporter are all liars. The judicial system is irrelevant! Do you know how ridiculous you sound?
The gospelers don’t say, “This is my version of history as best as me and the guys can piece it together.” What the gospels say is, ‘ Herod… said to his servants, “This is John the Baptist, he has been raised from the dead; that is why these powers are at work in him.” And
Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
["Matthew" 5:1 - 12]
You know this and believe it yourself. You were recently telling me what Jesus said.
What the gospels say explicitly, clearly, repeatedly, habitually, is that they are reporting verbatim what people said. It is not possible that the authors, or anyone, could do this. The gospel writers knew that. And they did it anyway. The gospel writers were liars.
Question #1
What was the motive and incentive for these men to put their lives at stake, become persecuted, and go through all that trouble and time to invent a lie, and keeping lying over and over again (making sure that the whole group all agreed to keep the same lie together to the end) and die about it? Please provide valid proof!
I’m not sure what “valid proof” would be to a fella who believes it is possible God Zeus came to Earth as a cow.
I don’t know specifically whom you have in mind, or that they knew their lives were at stake, or that when they did know they had the chance to recant. I don’t know that they even existed – remember, it’s a myth. I do know you haven’t provided evidence of your “facts” here.
I do know, because I’ve read his letters, that Ignatius saw Christianity as a death cult. On his way to be killed he specifically and repeatedly instructed his fellow nutters not to save him from the sweet glory of martyrdom.
Question #2
How do you know for a fact that Christianity borrowed myths from these religions and who did they borrow it from? I want proof!
Yes of course you do. Because you know you can decide never to be satisfied with whatever ‘proof’ is given. It’s an old apologist dodge. It’s not crafty, its just dishonest. And more than a little pathetic. We both know what you’re doing.
moonsray
April 23, 2009 at 1:51 am
Haha, when did i say that I believe that Zeus came down as a cow? I believe “certain” miracles are possible because I believe in a “certain” God. That’s a whole new topic and I’m not going to deviate too much on miracles.
Putting words in my mouth and false assumptions huh? I’m not surprise that its coming from a hate-heist that seems to contradict himself and only pick and choose to answer questions he’s most comfortable with while avoiding the other ones.
Anyways, once again you’re in error. This is a common mistake that hate-theist make. First of all Biography was not a major literary genre in the ancient world. Second of all Modern history and ancient Jewish biographies are NOT THE SAME so their style is different. They don’t have the sense as we do today and it was important to give equal proportion to all periods of an individual’s life or that it was necessary to tell the story in strictly chronological order as long as the essence of what they said was preserved.
Ancient Greek and Hebrew didn’t even have quotation marks like we do today.
The only reason why history was worth recording because there was a lesson to be learned. That is a common theme in ancient history. Look into ancient history yourself such as the works of Plutarch and Cornelius Nepos.
Let me ask you this: How do you know what anybody said in past history at all? How do you know what Lincoln or Jefferson actually said? If we applied your criteria to anyone’s biography, they would lose all credibility and confidence! All of history would be irrelevant! It is important for historians to gather necessary hard evidence and probability of what a person actually said. Historians go through a series of tests to deem the probability of something as true.
How do you know without a shadow of doubt that Jesus DID NOT SAY THOSE THINGS? I would expect facts and no opinions since you always require the same! I’m very curious to know.
Also, how many biographies have you wrote since you audaciously claim that you can verify the absolute truth in what somebody said or not?
If you were to write a biography of your grandfather how would you construct what he actually said or not if you weren’t there!
I also want to know what religion did Christianity borrow their religion from? Please do tell. If you’re going to make a claim like that at least provide a fact instead of a sloppy opinion!
You ask me a million questions and I attempt to answer most of them as best as I can. I ask you a few questions, you barely answer any of them, and if you do, you’re very selective you and don’t supply any credible resources, the things you always require of me. You also require historical resources but the most ridiculous things is that you don’t even believe in history and imply that all of history is false so what’s the point?
Another funny thing you do is you start to refer to history, the very thing that you discard as truth!! Like, how do you know what people worshiped in the past such as Horus, Glycon, Mithra? You weren’t a first eye witness to see them worship it and you didn’t record anything at that exact time!
You’re obviously referring to historical resources to maintain your argument (but according to you, they are all false!!!)….
So basically all of your arguments would fail at the start because it couldn’t hold its own weight! Your arguments would be subject to fail from your own made up criteria!
dude, that’s weird, you don’t make any sense, and you always contradict yourself!
herqlez253
April 28, 2009 at 4:08 pm